Content Consumption Speed and Difficulty
Casual players can't expect to get everything spoon feeded just because they pay for it tbh.
Yet you can demand content that is up to your skill level? Why? I mean, they have as much right to demand content fit to their skill level as you have to demand content at your skill level.
If one argument is valid, there's no reasonable way to say the other argument isn't just as valid (if you do, then you're basically arguing that you are more valuable than other players).
Well, if he wants to do crippled boss fights in LFR, his business, but talking about it as an alternative to raiding, no. If I have no time to raid, I quit, simple as that.
That is your choice, but you can't expect nor force other people to just quit if they don't have what you consider enough time to raid.
My logic might not be 100% accurate but I believe Blizzard's is a faulty one. They say LFR is a great tool, this assumpion is purely based on fact how many people do it each week, almost everybody was doing it at launch, right? They know how many do that, but they do not know their incentives. Who knows, maybe 90% playerbase hate it and do it only for VP, who knows we will never know, right? Because in 7 years in a game we have been given no in-game feedback what we like/dislike, some sort of enquiry sheet.
Do you really think 90% of players do something they hate? I mean, 99% of the statistics on the Internet are usually made up.
So now you can see my problem with statement that LFR is a great success because almost everybody is doing it, but somehow they always forget to mention that running LFR was a must for raiders if they wanted to stay competitive and for the non-raiders it is the most effective VP grind. Sure there are alternatives to VP grind, but this one is the most effective.
It wasn't a must for raiders. Sure, the most hardcore players ran it until they could get the set bonuses completed. But you need to keep in mind that these players are so dedicated and focused on the race to be the first in the world. That they'll literally take whatever they can to get an edge over their competitors.
And very often, by putting means that aren't just available to pretty much any other guild, even those that are almost as hardcore as them.
The fact that my guild, who is casual as !@#$, breezed through normals on the first day of Dragon Soul release, should be proof that it is indeed way too easy.
Dragon Soul cleared on the first day of release is casual?
I'm checking WoWprogress (since it's a widely accepted site in the community to measure raid progression), out of curiosity, and here's what I've gathered:
4 guilds cleared Dragon Soul in the US on release day (and 101 on the day after)
225 cleared Dragon Soul on EU on release day.
14 guilds cleared Dragon Soul in TW on release day.
66 guilds cleared Dragon Soul on KR on release day.
Which amounts to a total of 410 guilds in the world (counting those 101 on the US that did it on the day after, otherwise, 309) clearing the raid on the respective release days of their regions. If that's casual (considering WoWprogress is tracking, by now, close to 60000 guilds), then I believe we have a serious issue measuring effort, dedication, and success, in the community.
One of the things that frustrate me about you, Draztal, and probably about Blizzard as a whole, is how you're not remotely sympathetic to people who have a different idea of what is good than what Blizzard's current design direction is.
I am sympathetic. And through 81 pages of discussion, I've tried to join a discussion with those players. There're few things that have really been made clear during this thread; and many of my questions and points have either been ignored or discarded, while the thread has mostly kept going on in their reasoning about why things should go in a different direction even when questioned about how things might look from a different perspective.
You could try to understand our points, yet instead you attempt to undermine us at every turn, twisting around our arguments to make it sound like we're a bunch of arrogant jerks who are only interested in being special snowflakes at the expense of other players.
Not at all, but if you want to argue something, there's got to be more flesh to it than "bring TBC back" or "because 1% of raiders seeing the last boss is good" or "because casual players don't deserve what we do".
And as I said a while ago, the only way to have a proper discussion is to actually see both sides of the coin. Some of the people posting here just refuse to even consider the fact that there's another side of the coin (or if they do, just to demean them).
But to see Wolfstabzor the worgen rogue in BoE PvP gear killing the LFR deathwing doesnt motivate me to kill DW 25 HC AT ALL.
Why? He's killing LFR Deathwing. While you're aiming to kill Deathwing on its hardest incarnation available.
So you saying "Look, I killed Heroic Deathwing! I'm good at this game!!" still stands on its own as something remarkable.
I've been against LFG and LFR since release and I think you should consider removing this.
Why would we remove something that is popular and that our developers have mentioned several times in the past that they are very happy with their popularity? This "let's punish everyone else because I don't like it" is not really an argument.
By this reasoning, let's go back to MUDs, because those were the true ways of a hardcore player, where you would even end up drawing the dungeon on paper because you weren't sure of where your character was. And you know what? That'll be good for the gamers because we just got it too easy in the 90s with all those 2D graphics and maps.
Yet I (and others) have done exactly that. Many of us have tried to explain that for us, it is not about being better than "the rest", it is about a sense of accomplishment - whether that takes the form of bosses you haven't seen before in a watered down difficulty, unique-looking equipment as a reward, "graduation" into the next tier of content or simply progression at our own pace instead of the pace Blizzard artificially dictates for us. You don't tend to answer these posts at all, and if you do it is to point out how wrong we are to believe such.
I don't believe you're wrong. But all those arguments have something in common: exclusivity. And that's fine. I mean, it's a valid point and it's feedback I can pass to the developers.
However, at the end of the day, those posts still ignore what I've asked. Why is it such a big deal that other players, in a much longer amount of time, can get what you're getting now?
Why those players that can't devote as much time, or don't have as much skill as you, should be excluded of experiencing content?
Casual players can't expect to get everything spoon feeded just because they pay for it tbh.
Yet you can demand content that is up to your skill level? Why? I mean, they have as much right to demand content fit to their skill level as you have to demand content at your skill level.
If one argument is valid, there's no reasonable way to say the other argument isn't just as valid (if you do, then you're basically arguing that you are more valuable than other players).
Well, if he wants to do crippled boss fights in LFR, his business, but talking about it as an alternative to raiding, no. If I have no time to raid, I quit, simple as that.
That is your choice, but you can't expect nor force other people to just quit if they don't have what you consider enough time to raid.
My logic might not be 100% accurate but I believe Blizzard's is a faulty one. They say LFR is a great tool, this assumpion is purely based on fact how many people do it each week, almost everybody was doing it at launch, right? They know how many do that, but they do not know their incentives. Who knows, maybe 90% playerbase hate it and do it only for VP, who knows we will never know, right? Because in 7 years in a game we have been given no in-game feedback what we like/dislike, some sort of enquiry sheet.
Do you really think 90% of players do something they hate? I mean, 99% of the statistics on the Internet are usually made up.
So now you can see my problem with statement that LFR is a great success because almost everybody is doing it, but somehow they always forget to mention that running LFR was a must for raiders if they wanted to stay competitive and for the non-raiders it is the most effective VP grind. Sure there are alternatives to VP grind, but this one is the most effective.
It wasn't a must for raiders. Sure, the most hardcore players ran it until they could get the set bonuses completed. But you need to keep in mind that these players are so dedicated and focused on the race to be the first in the world. That they'll literally take whatever they can to get an edge over their competitors.
And very often, by putting means that aren't just available to pretty much any other guild, even those that are almost as hardcore as them.
The fact that my guild, who is casual as !@#$, breezed through normals on the first day of Dragon Soul release, should be proof that it is indeed way too easy.
Dragon Soul cleared on the first day of release is casual?
I'm checking WoWprogress (since it's a widely accepted site in the community to measure raid progression), out of curiosity, and here's what I've gathered:
4 guilds cleared Dragon Soul in the US on release day (and 101 on the day after)
225 cleared Dragon Soul on EU on release day.
14 guilds cleared Dragon Soul in TW on release day.
66 guilds cleared Dragon Soul on KR on release day.
Which amounts to a total of 410 guilds in the world (counting those 101 on the US that did it on the day after, otherwise, 309) clearing the raid on the respective release days of their regions. If that's casual (considering WoWprogress is tracking, by now, close to 60000 guilds), then I believe we have a serious issue measuring effort, dedication, and success, in the community.
One of the things that frustrate me about you, Draztal, and probably about Blizzard as a whole, is how you're not remotely sympathetic to people who have a different idea of what is good than what Blizzard's current design direction is.
I am sympathetic. And through 81 pages of discussion, I've tried to join a discussion with those players. There're few things that have really been made clear during this thread; and many of my questions and points have either been ignored or discarded, while the thread has mostly kept going on in their reasoning about why things should go in a different direction even when questioned about how things might look from a different perspective.
You could try to understand our points, yet instead you attempt to undermine us at every turn, twisting around our arguments to make it sound like we're a bunch of arrogant jerks who are only interested in being special snowflakes at the expense of other players.
Not at all, but if you want to argue something, there's got to be more flesh to it than "bring TBC back" or "because 1% of raiders seeing the last boss is good" or "because casual players don't deserve what we do".
And as I said a while ago, the only way to have a proper discussion is to actually see both sides of the coin. Some of the people posting here just refuse to even consider the fact that there's another side of the coin (or if they do, just to demean them).
But to see Wolfstabzor the worgen rogue in BoE PvP gear killing the LFR deathwing doesnt motivate me to kill DW 25 HC AT ALL.
Why? He's killing LFR Deathwing. While you're aiming to kill Deathwing on its hardest incarnation available.
So you saying "Look, I killed Heroic Deathwing! I'm good at this game!!" still stands on its own as something remarkable.
I've been against LFG and LFR since release and I think you should consider removing this.
Why would we remove something that is popular and that our developers have mentioned several times in the past that they are very happy with their popularity? This "let's punish everyone else because I don't like it" is not really an argument.
By this reasoning, let's go back to MUDs, because those were the true ways of a hardcore player, where you would even end up drawing the dungeon on paper because you weren't sure of where your character was. And you know what? That'll be good for the gamers because we just got it too easy in the 90s with all those 2D graphics and maps.
Yet I (and others) have done exactly that. Many of us have tried to explain that for us, it is not about being better than "the rest", it is about a sense of accomplishment - whether that takes the form of bosses you haven't seen before in a watered down difficulty, unique-looking equipment as a reward, "graduation" into the next tier of content or simply progression at our own pace instead of the pace Blizzard artificially dictates for us. You don't tend to answer these posts at all, and if you do it is to point out how wrong we are to believe such.
I don't believe you're wrong. But all those arguments have something in common: exclusivity. And that's fine. I mean, it's a valid point and it's feedback I can pass to the developers.
However, at the end of the day, those posts still ignore what I've asked. Why is it such a big deal that other players, in a much longer amount of time, can get what you're getting now?
Why those players that can't devote as much time, or don't have as much skill as you, should be excluded of experiencing content?
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