Retribution Changes
The easiest way to handle this is to tell us:
What was your damage before?
What is your damage now?
What do you think your damage should be?
Is someone beating you that you think should not be?
Numbers are going to go up and numbers are going to go down until launch, and possibly after. It's going to be an exhausting few weeks if every number change we do launches threads that I'd characterize as "Don't nerf me bro."
also about all those damage reductions do you guys do that incrementally while testing or reduce damage now and test later??? Seems to me it's more of a nerf everything now and do testing exclusively later then if it doesn't work bring it back! Correct me if I'm wrong on this!
No, we do a lot of testing and agree on which specs need to come up or down and then figure out the best strategy to adjust that damage. We are doing more across-the-board buffs or nerfs these days (or hitting passives) since we aren't in most cases trying to change priorities or rotations, just hitting overall DPS.
A really typical situation for us to be in at this stage in development is that DPS gradually crept up because inflated damage numbers were covering up for a lot of bugs. Now that those bugs are all getting fixed, and now that things like underpowered talents, glyphs, set bonuses and the like have been adjusted, then DPS has inched up for almost everyone. At this point we have nerfed almost every class except rogues and Feral druids, who just happened to be pretty close to our target numbers already. (I'm guessing Arms will be okay or need buffs, but we're not there yet.)
No, not really. That's why you need numbers. Which you still didn't give. What does middle-of-the-pack dps mean in the context of beta? What if the top half are all the untuned specs?
Yeah. And if middle of the pack is offensive, then who exactly should be middle of the pack? Healers? Then who is at the bottom?
The danger of displaying DPS in a stack rank (which is what World of Logs and most sites do, as wonderful as they are overall) is that it's a stack rank. If you're middle of the pack but the guy on top is 200 DPS ahead of you, that's not really a difference, though it can be arresting when displayed visually.
I'm not trying to sound patronizing, but a strategy we use is to divide things into buckets. Look at the bars that are close together and put those into buckets. If the Shadow priest, Ret paladin and Enhance shaman bars are all close together, then put them into a bucket and call that "high dps" even if the Ret is above the shaman. If the next series of bars looks noticeably smaller, cluster those together and call them "medium dps." There might be one bucket or there might be 5-6, but even in a 25-player raid you don't often see 25 buckets.
That's YOUR job and YOUR job only to ensure all classes are on an even plane. It's our job to report our findings with the class we play. This isn't a "Don't nerf me bro." thread idiot.
Are we calling each other names now? That could be fun. Tragically, I have moderators on my side, so I'll probably win.
We're totally comfortable doing our jobs. We have targets for DPS and we strive to hit them. We also appreciate feedback from the community and we give you an opportunity to point out potential problems. However, if you want to convince us that we need to change our numbers, the burden of proof is on you. We're not going to seek permission from the community to balance the game the way it needs to be balanced.
You said "Damage before was higher than damage now." Yes, we know. We nerfed the damage. Is it too low now? Why? By how much? What's your argument? If anyone could just post on the forums "My damage is too low now," and we had to buff based on that, we'd be in an interesting (but perhaps very entertaining) situation.
HoW being usable throughout AW is a key Paladin attribute.
We think using Hammer of Wrath during Avenging Wrath was a fun change for paladins that made wings more than just a percent increase to all damage. I'm not sure we would immediately buff Hammer of Wrath if we left it only as an execute. I understand that Execute and Shadow Word: Death are fun, but we don't really want Hammer of Wrath to be a mirror of those abilities. We have enough mirrored abilities already.
I can appreciate that it's a change you would make if you were in my shoes. I fully acknowledge that this is a very subjective business.
The easiest way to handle this is to tell us:
What was your damage before?
What is your damage now?
What do you think your damage should be?
Is someone beating you that you think should not be?
Numbers are going to go up and numbers are going to go down until launch, and possibly after. It's going to be an exhausting few weeks if every number change we do launches threads that I'd characterize as "Don't nerf me bro."
also about all those damage reductions do you guys do that incrementally while testing or reduce damage now and test later??? Seems to me it's more of a nerf everything now and do testing exclusively later then if it doesn't work bring it back! Correct me if I'm wrong on this!
No, we do a lot of testing and agree on which specs need to come up or down and then figure out the best strategy to adjust that damage. We are doing more across-the-board buffs or nerfs these days (or hitting passives) since we aren't in most cases trying to change priorities or rotations, just hitting overall DPS.
A really typical situation for us to be in at this stage in development is that DPS gradually crept up because inflated damage numbers were covering up for a lot of bugs. Now that those bugs are all getting fixed, and now that things like underpowered talents, glyphs, set bonuses and the like have been adjusted, then DPS has inched up for almost everyone. At this point we have nerfed almost every class except rogues and Feral druids, who just happened to be pretty close to our target numbers already. (I'm guessing Arms will be okay or need buffs, but we're not there yet.)
No, not really. That's why you need numbers. Which you still didn't give. What does middle-of-the-pack dps mean in the context of beta? What if the top half are all the untuned specs?
Yeah. And if middle of the pack is offensive, then who exactly should be middle of the pack? Healers? Then who is at the bottom?
The danger of displaying DPS in a stack rank (which is what World of Logs and most sites do, as wonderful as they are overall) is that it's a stack rank. If you're middle of the pack but the guy on top is 200 DPS ahead of you, that's not really a difference, though it can be arresting when displayed visually.
I'm not trying to sound patronizing, but a strategy we use is to divide things into buckets. Look at the bars that are close together and put those into buckets. If the Shadow priest, Ret paladin and Enhance shaman bars are all close together, then put them into a bucket and call that "high dps" even if the Ret is above the shaman. If the next series of bars looks noticeably smaller, cluster those together and call them "medium dps." There might be one bucket or there might be 5-6, but even in a 25-player raid you don't often see 25 buckets.
That's YOUR job and YOUR job only to ensure all classes are on an even plane. It's our job to report our findings with the class we play. This isn't a "Don't nerf me bro." thread idiot.
Are we calling each other names now? That could be fun. Tragically, I have moderators on my side, so I'll probably win.
We're totally comfortable doing our jobs. We have targets for DPS and we strive to hit them. We also appreciate feedback from the community and we give you an opportunity to point out potential problems. However, if you want to convince us that we need to change our numbers, the burden of proof is on you. We're not going to seek permission from the community to balance the game the way it needs to be balanced.
You said "Damage before was higher than damage now." Yes, we know. We nerfed the damage. Is it too low now? Why? By how much? What's your argument? If anyone could just post on the forums "My damage is too low now," and we had to buff based on that, we'd be in an interesting (but perhaps very entertaining) situation.
HoW being usable throughout AW is a key Paladin attribute.
We think using Hammer of Wrath during Avenging Wrath was a fun change for paladins that made wings more than just a percent increase to all damage. I'm not sure we would immediately buff Hammer of Wrath if we left it only as an execute. I understand that Execute and Shadow Word: Death are fun, but we don't really want Hammer of Wrath to be a mirror of those abilities. We have enough mirrored abilities already.
I can appreciate that it's a change you would make if you were in my shoes. I fully acknowledge that this is a very subjective business.
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